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Q-talk 7 - LETTERS


Many of you have been thoughtful enough to do your duty and report in along with your '88 dues. Here's the word from some of our buddies"

Enclosed are my dues for '88. My wife is watching the Rose Bowl Parade; I'm working on my elevator fit. What a great way to start the New Year! - Dennis Mielke, WI.....I have started back to work on the Q-2 after no place to work on it for 2 years. I have met a fellow builder (Beachner V-8 Special). We are helping each other and learning together. Carl lives 45 miles away so I don't get to work on it very often but I try to get quality time on it. - Walter Newton, OR.....My TriQ-200 has been in the works 4 years now. How people can keep track of specific hours worked is above me. Best advice was given before, DO A LITTLE WORK ON THE BIRD EACH DAY. Even though I do not, I think with that in mind, one can do anything! - Stan Darlak, CA.....I want to fly NOW, so one of my building partners and I bought a neglected '46 Ercoupe. WHATAYAKNOW, another project! I've had 2 cyls off to repair oil leaks. - Bruce Patten, ME.....and then there was this wise-guy Jim Smith in Sioux City, IA who addressed his letter to: QUICKIE REBUILDERS ASSOCIATION - ED.....My Q-200 is over 2 years old and 255 hrs TT and I still enjoy reading the newsletter. It reminds me of what it was like to build each part, and the statement "Everything takes longer than you expect it to..." was so TRUE! I'm going to print that line on a computer banner for our hangar flying group. - Mike and Liz Dwyer, St. Petersburg, FL.....Time for me to s--- or get off the pot. I'm getting off the pot. Please place my Project For Sale ad in your classifieds. - Bill Baldwin, Stuart, FL.....Congratulations on a good year. Here's my dues for '88. Tri-Q N120JT is waiting for the state to plow the airport I need to use (with the oil price drop, it may wait for spring!). - Tom O'Grady, Anchorage, Alaska.....My Q-2 is now half completed. I work on my plane one month every two months...the one after I receive Q-Talk! I will use a HAPI Magnum 75 engine (hydraulic valve lifters, electronic ignition, same weight as Rev. 65). Page 8 of QT#5 convinced me and there is a Canadian distributor for HAPI. Is anyone flying/installing a HAPI? - Christian Rheault, 109 de Noviciat CP 176, Lac-au-Saumon, Quebec, CANADA G0J-1M0.....I have now 46 hrs. with my 18 hp Quickie - and I love it. Rate of climb is about 250 fpm at SL (OAT 60F). Top baffling is a must and landings are OK when you remember to keep steady pressure with both feet on rudder pedals during landing to avoid ground loop tendency. During winter I'll install vortex generators and new elevator trim. Happy New Year! - Jorma Ohman, FINLAND.....Still have a 60% completed Tri-Q200 in my garage, but work stopped since my former partner moved to IN. Is there anyone living in the La Grange, IL area who would be interested in participating? I have everything to finish it. - Bill Wardle, 5537 S. Ashland, La Grange, IL 60525.....My Q-2 is at home for modification: moving the wheels INBOARD and installing individual brakes (I just don't like the ground handling with the wheels on the tips) and replacing the Rev with an 0-200. - Ira Mason, CA.....The account of Norm Howell's N17UQ in Sport Aviation is the best news I've had since I started this project (there has been so much negative). Can Norm be persuaded to do an article on his engine installation? - Wm. Fisher, Man. Canada.....Got the Xmas QBA today on a Friday off work. Slept in and read QBA in bed with a fresh cup of coffee -- GREAT start to a long weekend. - Bob Falkiner, Canada.....My project is on hold now. When the price of oil comes back up or I find another career, I hope to go to a custom builder to finish up. - Larry Eudy, TX.....Still haven't got the inspectors up from Jackson (They have been ill, ice storms, etc.). I've really got the itch. Don Baker, MS.....We now have 5 Tri-Q's flying at Springfield Regional Airport, MO. All are Revmaster powered. No major engine problems. I have flown all 5 and each one is a little different. Jim Langley, MO.....Another new address (Salt Lake City to Seattle to San Francisco). Without my Q-2 N515R I would have had to drive all those miles. My family in the Dakotas gets to see it this summer. Rumors back there are that it really doesn't fly. Rand Kreich, CA.....Speaking of Quickie not surviving, I did get a hold of Gene in October and spoke with him for awhile. The phone (805-824-9136) is in his hangar on the west side of the field and he is there sometimes. He says the suit still isn't settled yet and still seems to think he wants to sell the kits again when the suit is settled. Gordon Pratt, CA.....I took a new job in California, bought a 3 car garage with house attached, spent endless time squaring it away, and now it's down to Q-business. I now live near Camarillo airport so I have all of life's necessities in order. Gene Cash, CA.....With 6 years of work and many gallons of beer pee'd, N56DW can now be seen creeping slowly among the hangars. We are using a C-85 with the Ellison Injector, Slick mags and B&C alternator. All's well after 7 hours running time. Jim Doyle, IL.....I am RIGHT NOW, having a new, central a/c heat pump put in the "airplane factory" wing of my house to replace the one that broke down and the old electric heaters. NO EXCUSE anymore not to proceed around the calendar, around the clock on N49X! - Tom Cline, MD.....Thanks to your encouragement, I plan to start work again on my 80% complete Q-2 --- after a 3-year hiatus. - Bill Bensinger, WA.....Thanks for keeping our only link of communications and continuity intact. - Dan Sayre, WI.....I am glad you saw your way through to get out the Nov/Dec Q-Talk, knowing the trying times you and your wife have had medically. I guess maybe you found out that some times require more struggle than others and that to struggle makes you stronger, if you survive. Good for you and good for us because Sam Hoskins of IL sure gave the kind of information that could save many of us unnecessary doom in Q-TALK #6. - Phil Kelly, FL.....My butt is now on jigs and I can sit and play airplane! Larry Kehler, MO.....Did you ever stop and think that you may have saved human life/lives by QUICKTALK? Think about it. Doctors don't have the market on the act of lifesaving, they've just got the $$ part of it. - Mitch Strong, NY.....My partner, Dave Smiley and I continue to work irregularly and slowly on #2038. We have made axle changes (ours was 2.25" aft, done by the book), brake changes, etc., and we will glue the canard and wing on soon. - John Granzella, CA.....I read Q-TALK cover to cover as soon as it arrives, and additional times after that. My partner Dick (age 80+) and I have nearly completed a Q-1 LS-1 canard with the 12.75" grass wheels and it's coming out beautiful. - Ted Kibiuk, NY.....Slow going on Q-200. Now setting pants on new canard. Will toe out 1&1/2 degrees. Would more be better? - Joaquin De LaRaza, CA.....I work in one state 5 days a week, and my 1&1/2 Q-2 projects are at home in another state. I have only been able to dust them off on weekends, however, I WILL build them. - Steve Matthewson, CA.....A progress report: my Tri-Q-85 is cosmetically complete. The extended main wing (231") has been successfully load tested to 5.2 G's; minor details (endless) are being finished up now. Testing begins in Jan. - John Goff, NJ.....I am a Dragonfly builder and I very much enjoy Q-TALK. I have finally finished my plane and it has been flown successfully by another test pilot although I have had several bugs to work out. - John Owen, NC.....I'm very glad I found you people, as the Q-TALK has sure helped me a lot. I'd like to hear more from anyone burning car gas in a Revmaster, as 100LL is .75 cents per liter up here. - Dave Ramsay, Ont. Canada.....It looks like engine complaints are not longer an excuse for not finishing a Q-1. - Maury Cosman, MA.....I spent most of the summer doing the fuselage modifications for the Tri-Q main gear. It was a real trial of one's patience to do all those layups, but that's the worst part! Thanks for putting in my request for any info on dual controls, but unfortunately no one was willing to share their secrets. - Stu White, MI.....I'm a Q-200 builder in the wild wilderness of the Northern part of Western Australia. When I tell you that I am the only builder in a state 1/3 the size of the USA (pop. 1.3 million), and that only one other person in the state is building a Quickie, and that the 8 or so people building Q-2's live on the other side of the country, you can believe me when I tell you that I'm building ALONE! - Trevor Fernihough, Broome, Western Australia.....My Q-2 has been in hibernation in my cold storage garage. I took a trip back east and stopped to visit Custom Composites and New Wave Aircraft Co. All were nice friendly folks. - Dale Johnson, OH.....Well, what about Ted Fox's HOSPITALITY CLUB effort? He sent me a list of those that signed up and I was astounded to find only 10 names on the list! I know from various contacts at OSHKOSH and other events that there are more than 10 QBA folks willing to be hospitable to another QBAer. How about giving Ted some publicity? - Charlie Lipke, WI.....ED. NOTE: Ted, Fox, Box 23, Mansfield, OH 44901 or call (419) 756-8142. He ain't gonna reach out from the bowels of YOUR mailbox, grab you by the neck and force you to participate...but then again, he might!

Dear Jim:

My recent move from Austin to Denver brought the total mileage on my Q-200 to over 5,000 miles - all sideways on a trailer, down at Interstate. I've set up shop in 6 locations in 4 years. I will get the airplane done by summer. I will, I will,.....

My contribution this time will be parts sources:

1. 5" prop extension, $175.00, Derrick Industries, Inc., 1565 N. Broadway, Stockton, CA 95205 (209) 462-7381.

2. Canopy latches that have 1/2" adjustment, lock themselves in a closed position, and are just the right weight/strength for the Q-2 canopy. $17.00 a pair. Rand Robinson Engineering Inc., 5395-A Industrial Drive, Huntington Beach, CA 92649. (714) 898-3811 Catalog available.

3. The tailwheel assembly you ran a picture of a while back is available with 4" or 6" wheel, with a 20 degree angle for a 5/8" round spring. $80. Aviation Products Inc., 114 Bryant, Ojai, CA 93023 (805) 646-6042. Free catalog.

I'm doing finish work on my plane now and recommend West System Epoxy for dry micro work. At cake icing consistency it still sands quite well. Use Safe-T-Poxy if you want more toughness at a particular location. This phase of building is taking a lot longer than I expected, and I expected it to take a lot longer than I expected!

Barry Weber, Denver, CO (303) 427-2397

Dear Jim,

I am interested in getting information on a room for OSH '88. I have camped before but prefer not to this year. I look forward to talking to you in Wisconsin.

Bob Martin, Covesville, MD

ED. NOTE: Starting this early, housing is plentiful in and around OSH. Last year, several of my acquaintances got rooms even at the last minute. The U. of Wis. Oshkosh in an unprecedented move this year requires full payment for your stay IN ADVANCE. Partial refunds for changed schedules are available, of course, but this requirement will prevent frivolous reservations and make rooms more available for serious attendees. I've stayed at the dorms for 12 years (5 of us have reserved rooms together this year). Now $20 a night for a 2-bed room, access to downtown (by foot) and the airport is very convenient and cheap by special and frequent busses. Lots of taxis too. You do have to share dorm-style separate bathroom facilities for men or women. College stores, dining and student centers are kept open so there is plenty to fill your evenings. Bring a fan! Dorms aren't AC'd. Oshkosh and surrounding communities have many motels at varying rates. The Warbirds, for example, stay and raise their hell at the Fond du Lac Holiday Inn. Rates vary and are more than at the dorms.

Many attendees report GREAT experiences staying in rooms at private residences. Lots of these are made available for the week, rates are comparable to the dorms and often breakfast is included.

Oshkosh is not some small, hick town. It has an extensive bus system and taxis for getting around and it is FRIENDLY in spite of having a half million strangers swarm in for a week (if the residents spoke with a drawl, you'd think it was Georgia!). City facilities are well prepared for and seem to ENJOY the swarm. For details on dorm, motel or private housing call EAA (414) 426-4800.

Dear Jim,

Q #043 is progressing slowly but progressing. My youngest son is most ambitious and I have retired so things should now move along somewhat faster.

The Quickie get-together that QBA had at Oshkosh last year was the most informative and productive that we have had. It seemed to me that we got to meet and know each other a little better. It was relaxed and everyone got to explore his feelings and ideas. We look forward to next year.

Jim, it seems to me that Q-TALK has improved in quality and in maturity. The comments and suggestions and ideas are upbeat and directed to safety and quality and performance improvements. This is good and I compliment Q and Q-2 builders on the apparent change in attitude. We the builders and flyers of Q's are responsible for making it a good, safe and honest flying machine.

Lester Bone, Ft. Wayne, IN

ED. NOTE: Hold on JUST A MINUTE! Don't get confused. Looking at old back issues I can see NO change in attitude as regards safety, quality or performance improvements. Could this be another complaint about complaints? If we seem more upbeat it is because a thorn has been pulled from our paw. The thorn was real and we complained from real, not imagined, hurt. QBA's poor behavior has now stopped. No complaints...for now. And another thing: complaining is a normal part of the American experience and we are not un-American here. Americans complained about Jimmy Carter, complained about the Vietnam War, complained about slavery and the British Tea Tax. Shouldn't we have? Would we be better off if we hadn't (Years ago we complained about gays and illicit sex. Are we better off because we stopped complaining some 20 years ago?).

Dear Jim:

The new book by Jeana Yeager and Dick Rutan about the Voyager has some particularly poignant passages for Quickie fliers. I recall John Roncz's talk at Oshkosh that summer that the Voyager flew in, how he had designed the canard so that insects would go around the airfoil in such a way as to avoid splattering their guts on the leading edge and spoiling the laminar flow and the lift. I don't recall if he talked about the rain sensitivity of the airfoil but he probably didn't because the book tells us that they already knew that the airfoil was a DISASTER(!) in rain. To quote Dick Rutan: "Some canard aircraft have trouble with rain cutting lift on the canard by disturbing what the engineers call laminar flow. We had to know whether this one would behave this way - and better sooner than later...Just as we started picking up the first few drops of rain, the airplane started to pitch down. I corrected with the back stick - more elevator - but it kept coming down. The stick forces became very heavy, and as I kept coming back with the stick, I had a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that the airplane was coming down and I couldn't stop it...I pushed the power up. No matter what I did with the stick, we were going down pretty steeply, and I looked around for some way to get out of the rain. But the only thing to do was press on through, looking at the ground and at the edge of the shower and hoping we got through the shower before we got to the ground...Jeana got the parachutes ready, stowed the loose items, and I went through the emergency procedures, but there was no way I was going to bail out. I kept fighting it, fighting with such concentration and belief that I could save the airplane that I'm sure, if we hadn't come out of the shower, I would have stayed with the airplane all the way to the ground...But we just did make it through, the canard started to dry off, and we turned and flew around the shower and landed at Mojave."

They called Burt and John Roncz, who reportedly didn't seem too concerned, and were instructed to sand the canard to roughen it up. They did that and started out the next day for Oshkosh '84; turbulence nearly did them in and they ended up stopping in Kansas rather than making the hoped-for record non-stop flight to Oshkosh. They don't give any information about enroute encounters with rain but evidently the rain problem wasn't solved because as soon as they returned to Mojave they went to work to solve the problem. (I assume the sanding we did on our Quickie's canard hasn't helped us, either, but I haven't had a safe chance to find out.)

In dry Mojave, they simulated the rain by using torn-off duct tape along the leading edge of the canard to trip the boundary layer. "On takeoff the wings came up, but the canard didn't fly. We drove on through the normal takeoff speed and then eight knots faster, and I started playing with the elevator to try to get the nose up. When it finally did come up, it shot up, immediately stalled, and fell violently back. The airplane hit and rebounded, then began a porpoise motion. I started to try to fly it, but the elevator now had no effect whatsoever. So I shut down both engines and waited for the oscillations to die down. The tail booms hits the runway and kept the nose from coming up and we were able to roll to a stop...It scared me badly."

Burt suggested taking the tape off the main wing and the canard bottom and trying again and try gaining even more speed before raising the nose, but the same thing happened, only worse, leaving long scrape marks on the runway with the booms.

Dick and John Roncz then got permission from directors Bragg & Gregorek to test the canard in Ohio State University's tunnel. They recorded a 65% loss in lift when it was wet! Dr.Gregorek suggested vortex generators - which are very prominent in later photographs. Gee, Quickie pilots could have told them about all that.

Drs. Bragg and Gegorek reported on their development of vortex generators for the Voyager in Journal of Aircraft V. 24, No. 5, May 1987. They first talk about canard aircraft in general and then note "One of the first of these aircraft to fly was the Quickie, a tandem-wing, home-built aircraft. Because of its small size, low speed, and airfoil shape, the aircraft has a substantial amount of laminar flow on its flying surfaces. As more of these aircraft came into service, pilots began to report a new phenomena: When encountering a light rain, the aircraft changed pitch trim, tending to nose down, and required more back stick pressure to maintain level flight...There has been sufficient documentation of these pitch trim problems to ensure that it is a fundamental concern and not just a local problem due to inaccurate wing construction. The problem results partly because these advanced configuration aircraft require the stabilizing surface to operate at high left coefficient. Efficient laminar flow airfoils with high lift-to-drag ratios as high lift coefficient give these aircraft excellent performance. However, if this laminar flow is destroyed, by rain for example, the thickened turbulent boundary layer may separate early and cause a decrease in lift. This loss of lift on the forward stabilizing surface causes a nose-down change in pitching moment."

The researchers ended up with triangular-shaped vortex generators, possessing a base of 0.4" and a height of 0.4"; they were made in pairs with outward pointing sections 1" apart and at an angle of attack of 20?. They found that the maximum lift was actually increased slightly with these vortex generators and the drag coefficient for the airfoil increased only about 10%. Noting that the original Voyager wing was not filled or sanded aft of the 55% point on the upper surface and the 65% point on the lower surface because these were the predicted boundary-layer transition locations at cruise, they discovered this roughness (in the tunnel) actually increased the drag by almost 17%, so that correcting this problem apparently more than cancelled out the drag increase from the vortex generators.

Finally, the experimental confirmation: "The aircraft appears to perform better with regard to cruise speed than before...the pilots report an improved elevator stick force feel that they attribute to the vortex generators."

Best wishes for 1988. I am really determined to make it to Oshkosh this year and look forward to seeing QBA folks again. It would be nice to take both machines, but I wouldn't place any bets on that happening just yet. (We don't have good flying weather here at this time of year and my work makes it hard to get off in the middle of the week, but we are up to about 11 hours on the new machine. We have the old canard design but haven't had a chance to see how it does in the rain, yet! Apparently the new Roncz canard for the Long really does work properly in rain.)

Best regards,


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